markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 09:01): markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 09:01):Across Latvia there are plenty of streets that have German-localized names. I'd say that none of them look like transliteration:
Eksporta iela - ExportstraßeLielā iela - Große Straße, Brīvības iela -> FreiheitsstraßePulkveža Brieža iela - KonstantinstraßeFor latter ones I took a peek, and noticed changesets based on historic documents or books, so probably a misuse of tag, and it should be something of the manner old_name:de.
Considering sheer scale of problem, my lack of knowledge of German and history of region, I wouldn't do anything. So just bringing this to attention of community.
Here is the list of name pairs for highway=*+name:de=*:
markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 09:02): Rūpniecības iela: Industriestraße
Speķa iela: Speckstraße
Tvaika iela: Dampfstraße
Timoteja iela: Timotheusstraße
Reformācijas laukums: Reformationsplatz
Audēju iela: Weberstraße
Trokšņu iela: Lärmstraße
Citadeles iela: Zitadellenstraße
Aldaru iela: Brauerstraße
Jāņa sēta: Johannishof
Rīdzenes iela: Riesingstraße
Sabiles iela: Zabelnsche Straße
Prāgas iela: Prager Straße
Dienvidu tilts: Südbrücke
Avotu iela: Sprenkstraße
Teātra iela: Theaterstraße
Riharda Vāgnera iela: Richard-Wagner-Straße
Gleznotāju iela: Malerstraße
Alksnāja iela: Erlenstaße
Kalēju iela: Schmiedestraße
Grēcinieku iela: Sünderstraße
Šķūņu iela: Scheunenstraße
Republikas laukums: Platz der Republik
Mazā Krasta iela: Kleine Uferstraße
Kazarmes iela: Kasernenstraße
Viestura iela: Neustraße
Stacijas iela: Bahnhofstraße
Ukrainas neatkarības iela: Ukrainische Unabhängigkeitsstraße
Prinča Leopolda ceļš: Prinz – Leopold Straße
Dārza iela: Gartenstraße
Sakņudārza iela: Schleusenstraße
Uzvaras iela: Seestraße
Katrīnas dambis: Katharinen-Damm
Mīlestības tiltiņš: Liebesbrücke
Spīķeru iela: Ambarenstraße
Blaumaņa iela: Altstraße
Rūdolfa Blaumaņa iela: Rudolf-Blaumann-Straße
Neretas iela: Dünabrücke
Vilhelma Strūves iela: Wilhelm-Struwe-Straße
Krišjāņa Barona iela: Krischjan-Baron-Straße
Vārpu iela: Schneidemühlenstraße
Dobeles iela: Dobelnsche Straße
Krusteja: Kreuzgang des Rigaer Doms
Pilssalas iela: Schloßinsel
Pulkveža Brieža iela: Konstantinstraße
Dambja iela: Dammweg
Ausekļa iela: Marienstraße
Krišjāņa Barona iela: Schreiberstraße
Ausekļa iela: Zeughausstraße
Mūrnieku iela: Maurerstraße
Mazā Pils iela: Kleine Schlossstraße
Smilšu iela: Sandstraße
Noliktavas iela: Packhausstraße
Kronvalda bulvāris: Kronwald-Boulevard
Elijas iela: Eliasstraße
Daugavgrīvas iela: Dünamündsche Straße
Lielā iela: Große Straße
Kristapa iela: Christophstraße
Pētersalas iela: Peterholmsche Straße
Vīlandes iela: Felliner Straße
Ganību dambis: Weidendamm
Krāsotāju iela: Färberstraße
Katrīnas iela: Katharinenstraße
Miķeļa iela: Michaelstraße
Muitas iela: Zollstraße
Dzirnavu iela: Mühlenstraße
Merķeļa iela: Merkelstraße
Eksporta iela: Exportstraße
Tērbatas iela: Dorpater Straße
Marijas iela: Marienstraße
Elizabetes iela: Elisabethstraße
Hanzas iela: Hansastraße
Kaļķu iela: Kalkstraße
Salu tilts: Inselbrücke
Skārņu iela: Scharrenstraße
Eiženijas iela: Eugenienstraße
Anglikāņu iela: Anglikanische Straße
Bīskapa gāte: Stiftsausfahrt
Miesnieku iela: Küterstraße
Mūku iela: Mönchstraße
Doma laukums: Domplatz
Meistaru iela: Meisterstraße
Kuldīgas iela: Goldinger Straße
Jēkaba iela: Jakobstraße
Torņa iela: Turmstraße
Mazā Smilšu iela: Kleine Sandstraße
Vanšu tilts: Vanšu-Brücke
Vaļņu iela: Wallstraße
Minsterejas iela: Große Münstereistraße
Pils laukums: Schlossplatz
Margrietas iela: Margaretenstraße
Akmens tilts: Steinbrücke
Brīvības iela: Freiheitsstraße
Brīvības bulvāris: Freiheitsboulevard
Mārstaļu iela: Marstallstraße
Pils iela: Schlossstraße
Zirgu iela: Pferdestraße
Krasta iela: Uferstraße
Ganību iela: Weidenstraße
Well, you have to consider that we have very very few names that are actually transliterated per official rules. All these Russian and German names are from when they were official or at least signed. So their spelling is not guaranteed to be according to any current translitaration rules. German names in particular are really old and those used to fully translate and almost never transliterate. Whether some of these were added as translation afterwards and are wrong - possibly.
markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 09:09):Yes, but all those names from previous times don't belong to the name:xx tag, IIUC.
Dāvis Kļaviņš (Jun 18 2024 at 09:09):Mainly these are actually old_name. Same as for russian ones, should be corrected to old_name, but it's complicated as historical maps etc. must be used to verify that these really were used in the past (adding time periods would be beneficial).
HellMap (Jun 18 2024 at 09:11):For German, I agree with old_name - these are not actually used (with some very few exceptions, I believe).
markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 09:13):But not all of them are old names. For example Brīvības iela: Freiheitsstraße and Ukrainas neatkarības iela: Ukrainische Unabhängigkeitsstraße.
Pretty sure those are new. And who knows how much more of those are plain translate of current name.
Dāvis Kļaviņš (Jun 18 2024 at 09:14):These, which are not old ones, should simply be deleted.
HellMap (Jun 18 2024 at 09:18):Yeah, I didn't explicitly say - but I obviously mean the actual historic German names, not whatever was invented/translated recently. I don't know how many of those there are - one would need to go through their history.
HellMap (Jun 18 2024 at 09:21):For example, in one instance I asked https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/146885671 and the source was a wikipedia page, which does seem to list some old sources for these.
markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 21:59):Please, check those changesets:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/144444348
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/144476689
First one looks somewhat okay, but the change in the name for both Ogres. Also some of the renaming around castle is suspicious (though I don't know German so it might be fine).
But the later one seems to be an application of some historic names.
Additionally, same user made similarly strange edits across the Europe, and was asked not to in comments, but without response.
markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 22:11):Also, I stumbled across this wiki page in source for change in another changeset: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschsprachigen_Stra%C3%9Fennamen_in_Riga
Don't know what to do with it
HellMap (Jun 18 2024 at 22:14):It looks like one of those cases where a history enthusiast got hold of an old map and decided to add historic names to places and stuff. It's an ... interesting exercise. But these should really go into old_name and I really doubt the usefulness of this. OSM isn't really about historic data that has no current day use. Personally, I would ask them for a source and an explanation how these fit with current usage. And if not (which is most likely the case), then pretty much revert these. I don't really see the point of these these extremely old names. At the very least, move them all to old_name. But then again these don't really hurt anyone, which is why I didn't bother doing anything after that example above. I saw the wiki page and the names aren't made up, so it's not bad data, just in the wrong tag and likely of little to no value (ideally streets would have wikidata entries instead with all the language names and periods).
HellMap (Jun 18 2024 at 22:16):I will say it's possible some of these have infoboards or some indication of the old name and it can be kept because it would be valid to use these (at least, an argument can be made). But of course none of these edits were based on such survey, so adding such names would be coincidental and the burden of proof should be on the person making the additions - we can't be expected to survey every random name someone adds.
HellMap (Jun 18 2024 at 22:19):https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/138624708 Stuff like this is silly though name=Jelgavas pilsētas dome name:de=Rathaus
markalex2209 (Jun 18 2024 at 22:20):Well, regarding "don't really hurt" I think I disagree. Anybody who uses OSM or OSM based app with locale de above all else, will see those names instead of correct ones.
HellMap (Jun 18 2024 at 22:28):I mean, I agree. I've been saying, for example, we should remove all "Krasta Street" in every other village for ages, because that's always the default I see. But it seems other mappers in Latvia are more lenient. As I said above, I would revert these. Everything else in my comment is just more elaboration from different angles. The "don't hurt" perspective comes after I already mentioned "revert" and "old_name" and "historic name" and lack of "point of these".
Last updated: Dec 22 2024 at 03:37 UTC