Šobrīd depozīta vietu kartēšana ir ļoti nekonsekventa - piem., viens:
amenity=vending_machine
vending=bottle_return
operator=Rimi
Cits:
amenity=recycling
brand=Depozīta punkts
name=Depozīta punkts
recycling:cans=yes
recycling:glass_bottles=yes
recycling:plastic_bottles=yes
recycling_type=centre
Pirmkārt jau recycling_type=centre šķiet nepareizi, jo "These centres are dedicated areas for collecting a wider range of recyclable household materials."
Otrkārt, name laikam būtu ņemams nost.
Treškārt, nav skaidrs ar brand. Jā, var teikt, ka visi viņi ir "Depozīta punkts", bet reāli jau ikdienā apkopj (iztukšo) veikali.
Pie tam, vajag norādīt, kuros veikalos vispār derēs kuponi.
NSI ir divi preset'i:
Pie tam pievienoti ar vienu commit'u.
Pēc Overpass skatoties 1. ir populārāks.
Hmm, tas centre šķiet pamatīgi nepareizs, ja vien kaut kur tiešām nav lieli "Depozīta punkts" centri.
Un abiem "name" šķiet diezgan garām.
A kas īsti ir tajās sakranajās depozīta punkta būdās? Es tur neesmu bijis nekad. Kartē arī neesmu īsti atzīmējis.
Depozīta aparāti, viens vai divi. Apspriežot ar starptautisko kopienu, tika ieteikts zīmēt būdiņas atsevišķi un tad attiecīgi vienu vai divas aparātu nodes.
recycling_type=centre var būt garām, bet vismaz to var redzēt uz default OSM flīzēm. Šeit piemēram, vending=bottle_return ir pilnīgi neredzams, bet divi recycling_type=container blakus katrs dabū savu ikoniņu. Lasot https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4580 rodas tāds WTF moments...
Rihards Olups said:
Apspriežot ar starptautisko kopienu, tika ieteikts zīmēt būdiņas atsevišķi un tad attiecīgi vienu vai divas aparātu nodes.
Ja veikalam ir divi kases aparāti, tad to arī zīmēt kā divus ?!
Jā, tās Github issue loģikai īsti nepiekrītu, lai gan daļa ir saprotama. Tā novecojušā SVG jēgu neizpratu :)
Pievienoju komentāru, neko citu jau tur neizdarīs.
Varam demonstratīvi vienoties, ka Latvijā šos tagosim kā recycling centre :D
Kases aparāti - vai tad tos kāds cenšas iezīmēt OSM?
Rihards Olups said:
Kases aparāti - vai tad tos kāds cenšas iezīmēt OSM?
Nē, jo man būtu vienalga, cik kases aparāti ir veikalā. Tāpat man nav svarīgi, cik aparātu ir Depozīta punktā.
Ņemot vērā, ka uz ortofoto būdiņu vēl nav, es būtu priecīgs arī ja ir vienkārši
Es sākumā tos tagus pievienoju būdiņai, bet pēc tās sarunas sāku likt kā punktus.
Protams, ka viens punkts labāk nekā nekas - kā jau OSM ierasts, tuvinājumi ir standarta prakse :)
Vēl viena lieta par tiem amenity=recycling + recycling_type=* vs. amenity=vending + vending=bottle_return - vajag atcerēties, ka Nominatim special phrases ir tikai vienu tagu "dziļi", un ja nevarēs meklēt depozīta punktus pēc name
vai brand
(teiksim, ja viņiem parādīsies "konkurents"), tad būs pavisam skumji.
Pat šobrīd ar Nominatim nav ideāli. Viņš rāda rezultāta "kategoriju" (laikam arī balstās uz special phrases) un dažiem Depozīta punktiem tā ir "Recycling", bet dažiem - "Vending machine".
Depozīta punkts
Vai pareizi sapratu, ka amenity=recycling gadījumā tādā situācijā nevarētu atrast, jo nebūtu viena identificējoša taga kā vending=bottle_return?
Nē, vending=* vispār nepiedalās atlasē, jo tas ir second class citizen. Var meklēt vai nu "Recycling station" (un tad Depozīta punkti būs kopā ar konteineriem un citiem amenity=recycling), vai nu "Vending machine" (un tad Depozīta punkti būs kopā ar citiem amenity=vending).
Tāpēc man vairāk patīk variants zīmēt tos kā amenity=recycling + recycling_type=machine vai līdzīgi, kā bija pieminēts šeit. recycling_type=machine|vending_machine|reverse_vending_machine
šobrīd ir aptuveni 10 reiz mazāk nekā vending=bottle_return
, bet arī vending=bottle_return
vēl nav pārāk daudz.
Kā tādā gadījumā strādātu meklēšana?
Un vai Nominatim būtu reāli to uzlabot, lai vieglāk varētu meklēt vending=bottle_return?
Rihards Olups said:
Kā tādā gadījumā strādātu meklēšana?
Ja es pareizi saprotu, ar "Recycling station" special phrase varētu atrast gan Depozīta punktus, gan konteinerus, gan pārstrādes centrus. Arī meklējot pēc nosaukuma Depozīta punktiem būtu "Recycling" kategorija rezultātu sarakstā.
Rihards Olups said:
Un vai Nominatim būtu reāli to uzlabot, lai vieglāk varētu meklēt vending=bottle_return?
Es nepazīstu Nominatim kodu, tāpēc nevaru atbildēt. Par to jājautā maintainer'iem. Var atdzīvināt šo diskusiju, tur arī runa ir par "secondary tags" (amenity=bank
+ atm=yes
= ATM, amenity=pub
+ food=yes
= fast food, etc.)
Par depozītiem - daļai ir / ir pielikti name="Depozīta punkts".
Šķiet, tie visi būtu ņemami nost, vai ir kādi iebildumi?
Kāpēc? Pēc NSI datiem tiem jābūt ar tādiem name.
Uz tām būdām tač ir liels uzraksts "Depozīta punkts" - tas būtu vistaisnākais on-the-ground name
i-ky said:
Kāpēc? Pēc NSI datiem tiem jābūt ar tādiem name.
NSI var būt un dažreiz ir kļūdaini - tad tik pull requesti :)
HellMap said:
Uz tām būdām tač ir liels uzraksts "Depozīta punkts" - tas būtu vistaisnākais on-the-ground name
Uz dažiem lauku veikaliem ir "veikals", bet tas noteikti nav to vietu _vārds_/nosaukums.
Uz Swedbank bankomātiem ir "Swedbank", bet tas nav bankomātiem name. Arī pieminētajā NSI tas atspoguļots: https://nsi.guide/index.html?t=brands&k=amenity&v=atm#swedbank-ab2e60 .
Rihards Olups said:
i-ky said:
Kāpēc? Pēc NSI datiem tiem jābūt ar tādiem name.
NSI var būt un dažreiz ir kļūdaini - tad tik pull requesti :)
Tur ļoti daudz ierakstu, kam sakrīt name
un brand
...
Vari uztaisīt PR par Depozīta punktiem, redzēsim, ko maintainer'i teiks.
Depozīta punktiem ir [vismaz] divi operator - ikdienas darbību nodrošinošais, kas attiecīgi ir veikals, kurš nomaina pilnos konteinerus, tīra utml uztur šīs vietas.
Depozīta punkts tos remontē utt.
Es teiktu, ka Depozīta punkts pat nav operator OSM kontekstā nemaz, jo tā sasaiste ar veikalu ir daudz praktiskāka un datu izmantotājam nozīmīgāka.
No viena lietotājiem ir pilnīgi 0 ieguvumu, no otra - praktiski skaidrs, ar kuru veikalu šim punktam ir sasaiste.
i-ky said:
Rihards Olups said:
Pēc NSI datiem tiem jābūt ar tādiem name.
NSI var būt un dažreiz ir kļūdaini - tad tik pull requesti :) ```` Tur *ļoti* daudz ierakstu, kam sakrīt `name` un `brand`... Vari uztaisīt PR par Depozīta punktiem, redzēsim, ko maintainer'i teiks. ````` Ir tradicionāli lietotie, dažām veikalu ķēdēm utt. Maintaineri lielākoties necenšas neko uzspiest - uztaisa sanity check, un pievieno :) Mums kopienā būtu jāvienojas, lai nav rediģēšanas konflikti.
Es šos pielīdzinātu ATM, pakomātiem utt.
Nav nosaukumi "Omniva", "DPD", "SEB"...
Rihards Olups said:
Es šos pielīdzinātu ATM, pakomātiem utt.
Nav nosaukumi "Omniva", "DPD", "SEB"...
Nominatim ir problēmas ar ATM bez name
, lūk:
atm near domina shopping
Viņam šķiet, ka bankomāta adrese ir svarīgāka par operator
. Es nepiekritu.
Tāpēc pirms mēs ņemam nost name
no Depozīta punktiem, es gribētu pārliecināties, ka tas nerādīs problēmas ar default renderer'i, Nominatim, populāro aplikāciju stiliem utt.
Nominatim rezultāti jokaini, jā.
Vai ir zināms kāds reports Nominatim autoriem? Pameklēju, nevarēju atrast.
Rihards Olups said:
Nominatim rezultāti jokaini, jā.
Vai ir zināms kāds reports Nominatim autoriem? Pameklēju, nevarēju atrast.
Šeit pieminēts, ka tagad brand
tiek vairāk izmantots operator
vietā. Šeit pateikts, ka jātaisa jaunus issues, ja gribat indeksēt operator
noteikta tipa objektiem.
Ahh. Hmm.
Tad varbūt bankomātiem brand, un depozīta punktiem operator=veikals, brand="Depozīta punkts"?
Rihards Olups said:
Ahh. Hmm.
Tad varbūt bankomātiem brand, un depozīta punktiem operator=veikals, brand="Depozīta punkts"?
Vismaz Nominatim šādus (piemēram šo) var atrast pēc vaicājuma:
Depozīta punkts
Vienīgi bez name
ar default stilu to nevar atšķirt no parasta recycling konteinera, kas ir slikti.
Reāli es meklētu piemēram "Depozīta punkts Rimi"... No results found
Vispār, tas, ka meklējot punktus nerāda uzreiz kartē visus ir ļoti bēdīgi. Man tā visa OSMF nostāja, ka galvenā karte tas ir tikai tā - paraugs - nepatīk. Lietotāju adopcija nav un nebūs ar tādu pieeju.
HellMap said:
Reāli es meklētu piemēram "Depozīta punkts Rimi"... No results found
Būtu labs issue priekš Nominatim, man neizdevās atrast neko līdzīgu.
Skatoties, cik ilgi aizņem uzpildes stacijām pielikt brand
paliek ļoti skumji.
Par tagiem - tagad jauni tagi parādījušies piedāvājumā:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:vending%3Dbottle_return&diff=0&oldid=2494709
recycling:refund_bottles
recycling:refund_bottle_crates
Rihards Olups said:
Par tagiem - tagad jauni tagi parādījušies piedāvājumā:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:vending%3Dbottle_return&diff=0&oldid=2494709recycling:refund_bottles
recycling:refund_bottle_crates
recycling:glass_bottles=*
Indicates whether the machine accepts glass bottlesrecycling:plastic_bottles=*
Indicates whether the machine accepts plastic bottlesrecycling:refund_bottles=*
Indicates whether the machine accepts bottles... made of refund? No, actually both bottles and cans.Consistency Award 2023 :applause:
Kāpēc nevar recycling:accepts=cans;glass_bottles;plastic_bottles;bottle_crates
?
markalex2209 said:
I have a question regarding Depozīta punkts.
Right now they are added as two types: amenity=recycling or amenity=vending_machine
https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/commit/df7f4035e802a3145ce07d062a1d92b14b700393
I can only assume that they were added just because they started appearing in this two types, and author didn't actually know that these are the same(?) things.Should we fix this, and leave only one (and which one)?
Or should we leave it as is (and maybe ascribe some mnemonic meaning, like vending machine is when it's inside a shop, and recycling centre is a standalone building)?
No distinction, at least no convention, based on their layout - for some context, see #general > depozīta punkti.
Unifying them would be great, but it cannot be a pure mechanical edit, manual verification still needed.
To keep it all a bit more organised, took the liberty to move some posts here - hopefully that's OK.
markalex2209 said:
Also, is there any kind of established practice for tagging manual deposit points?
Not that I know of, but others could chime in.
These would be great to map, although that would most likely happen from the official upstream source, as surveying them would be nearly impossible.
Rihards Olups said:
markalex2209 said:
Also, is there any kind of established practice for tagging manual deposit points?
Not that I know of, but others could chime in.
These would be great to map, although that would most likely happen from the official upstream source, as surveying them would be nearly impossible.
Yeah, this question is related to osmalyzer)
We found that upstream contains both automatically and manual ones. And I don't know if we have any agreement how to tag manual ones so that we could actually compare upstream with osm.
Also, there is some strange third type (mentioned it in issue, forgot how it's called exactly now, something like bohentaromats)
No clue for now what it is, and what to do with it.
markalex2209 said:
- Beramtaromāts
I relied on the issue about that one before I read this. It's a vending machine. Same as "A" but not in a dedicated building.
I'm really not sure about manual return at shop. I don't see any tags to add to a shop or amenity.
markalex2209 said:
Also, there is some strange third type (mentioned it in issue, forgot how it's called exactly now, something like bohentaromats)
No clue for now what it is, and what to do with it.
From the name, it seems like on of those where bottles/cans are poured in a large opening, as opposed to being fed one by one - and then the machine just sorts them out automatically.
But I didn't know we have them in Latvia?
Bērt = to pour [for non-liquids]
Berams, berama (masculine, femnine) - one to be poured. Thus "beram" loses the gender-specific ending, leaving it to the second part of the compound word.
Also, notably, you cannot return glass there.
But it's basically just a bigger hole than regular ones - you can put multiples in. I am not sure there is a tag to distinguish this...
Rihards Olups said:
But I didn't know we have them in Latvia?
https://www.depozitapunkts.lv/darbibu-uzsak-latvija-pirmais-beramtaromats
Rihards Olups said:
Bērt = to pour [for non-liquids]
Berams, berama (masculine, femnine) - one to be poured. Thus "beram" loses the gender-specific ending, leaving it to the second part of the compound word.
I can't wait for you to explain "taromāts" :wink:
Reserving that for the next in-person event ;)
Heya @markalex2209, noticed you changing these to vending machines.
While that was something I preferred, we didn't quite reach conclusion (and there might be editors with a recycling centre preset).
Perhaps it's worth reopening that discussion :)
Rihards Olups said:
Heya markalex2209, noticed you changing these to vending machines.
While that was something I preferred, we didn't quite reach conclusion (and there might be editors with a recycling centre preset).Perhaps it's worth reopening that discussion :)
Yeah based on this wiki page and your comment, I've gone ahead and replaced them to vending machines (popping out them into POIs from buildings were there were ones)
I assumed that this wiki indicates consensus. And ambiguous tagging is undesired
andrisl also shown disagreement with my action. I asked them to join this chat.
Let me do, what I probably should have done before, and share my vision, and let community to judge how accurate it is.
I think that all automated taromats should be tagged as amenity=vending_machine
+ vending=bottle_return
(usual ones with recycling:cans
, recycling:plastic_bottles
and recycling:glass_bottles
and beromtaromats without last one).
Additionally, each usual ones and beromtaromats to have a single instance in NSI (two in total) in amenity=vending_machine category.
Also, shops that provide manual reclamation of bottles, to be tagged with recycling:cans
, recycling:plastic_bottles
and recycling:glass_bottles
.
Also, @Rihards Olups thank you very much for your explanation of word formation. This feels like out of my league for now, but I very much appreciate this)
@markalex2209 Tagging itself is okay and I would have no objections but, as I said in my comment under your changeset, amenity=vending_machine
is not rendered on the default map. So as a result of your changeset, all of the Depozīta punkts elements got hidden. Considering that amenity=recycling
at least gives a hint about the purpose of Depozīta Punkts (people leave their bottles there, they are taken away and recycled), this tag IMO is the most accurate one. I know some might call this "tagging for the renderer" but this is not really true in this case.
If recycling_type=centre
is not a desirable tag, then perhaps Depozīta Punkts POI's could be tagged with only amenity=recycling
tag without recycling_type=*
.
I will say that it is unfortunate that the default renderer does not show amenity=vending_machine on the map...
I think that buildings that house the recycling vending machine should be themselves tagged as amenity=recycling location and not a vending machine. And if we want to micromap, then a POI for the vending machine can be placed in it(there may be 2 or more or even manual). But the amenity itself is a designated recycling location that happens to have a vending machine.
Whether it is rendered or not (on the default map, other maps might differ - for example, OsmAnd does show bottle return vending machines) should not be a deciding factor, but it does add some strength to the choice as basically what A.L. said above.
The solitary vending machine POIs that are in shops or other places I would agree with M should be simply vending machines and as I said - it is unfortunate they don't render. But I cannot really justify "mistagging" them as recycling locations just for the rendering. I feel this is something we need to request Carto to start rendering.
Just to be clear, when I encountered buildings tagged as amenity=recycling (it was 13 of them in linked changeset and a couple more later) I retagged them into amenity=vending_machine and in a later changeset extracted node from them.
I still feel a bit doubtful about amenity=recycling, because in my mind those should be something significantly bigger than our buildings.
And this part of wiki
These centres are dedicated areas for collecting a wider range of recyclable household materials.
(emphasis mine), I'd say agrees with me.
But on the other hand, I agree that there is a clear distinction between those two, and there might be some benefit in tagging them in a distinct way.
I should note I do not believe these should be tagged recycling_type=centre
I feel like the current mini-building that Latvia has is something quite new in the world of vending-recycling, so OSM doesn't have an exact tag for this. We could literally create one for this purpose/function - that's basically how OSM works, although it's very rare to make up new stuff nowadays that isn't just a few examples.
Additional note: some deposit point buildings haven't been mapped yet like here, here, here, here, here. Results of your edit now imply that there are single vending machines in the middle of a street without buildings. Now we have to draw every deposit point building to specify that there is building with a vending machine not vending machine alone in the middle of street or parking. amenity=recycling
made up for the building implying that there is a place where stuff is recycled.
Edit: fixed two of them
Good point, Andris. Haven't thought about this implication.
As an example, this newish DP with beramtaromāts https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=460168579826229&focus=photo actually has 4 vending machines in it - one is beramtaromāts (no glass) and the other 3 are regular - this is something we could theoretically micromap
max-dp-beram.png
So I think it's reasonable to tag the building as recycling amenity with appropriate types of items and then if desired also add vending machines which can elaborate how exactly it can be done. But not just the vending machines, of which there can be 2+.
I'm not sure I fully get this sentence:
But not just the vending machines, of which there can be 2+.
I mean - not have a vending machine node POI by itself without a building + recycling amenity. In addition, there can be 2+ vending machines in that building, so having a single POI (by itself) also isn't technically accurate.
Ok. I suggest a plan, please indicate if this is adequate.
amenity=recycling
brand=Depozīta punkts
brand:wikidata=Q110979381
name=Depozīta punkts
recycling:cans=yes
recycling:glass_bottles=yes
recycling:plastic_bottles=yes
!without recycling_type=centre
,
recycling_type=centre
from amenity=recycling
one, add beramtaromats into amenity=vending_machine
and add notes explaining how to use all three of them.One unresolved issue: what to do with places where building is not immediately obvious? Tag with fixme? Leave note?
A quick note, not sure if you intended or not, but the building should still have building=* with some appropriate value (I haven't looked into it, but if we're standartizing, might as well pick a value)
No, when I wrote this I had in mind simple building=yes
. And if it already had addr
tags to leave them in place.
But you are right, since we are at it, might just as well discuss this detail.
I haven't found perfect match, but my favourite is building=kiosk
. It doesn't exactly match description in wiki, but we already have quite a few "walk-in" Narvessens with same exact situation.
That sounds good, that's a pretty good description actually
I've tagged buildings for outside of Riga and Valmiera. Those two have a lot, I'll do it later.
Also, I stumbled upon this issue: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4580, and I find it very sad.
Hehe, people rediscover that issue every few months :)
I've tagged buildings as amenity=recycling
back (actually way more than I removed initially)
Last updated: Dec 22 2024 at 03:46 UTC