Anne-Karoline Distel (May 23 2023 at 14:12): Anne-Karoline Distel (May 23 2023 at 14:12):(Šo ziņu tulkoja Google, jo es nerunāju latviski un neļaus šeit rakstīt atsevišķus angļu burtus.)
richlv mani uzaicināja publicēt šeit. Piena kannu stendu kartēšanu Īrijā un citur sāku šī gada martā. Tas bija domāts tikai kā īss projekts, taču cilvēki citās valstīs (īpaši Somijā) to pamanīja un pievienojās. Tagad mums ir vairāk nekā 700 kartētu visā pasaulē (http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vgA) un būtu lieliski, ja kāds no jums varētu pievienoties. Jūs varat palīdzēt vairākos veidos:
Manā Youtube kanālā ir daži video angļu valodā, bet ar subtitriem. Es nezinu, vai YouTube var ģenerēt latviešu subtitrus, atrodoties ceļā.
Būtu patiešām lieliski, ja šī Eiropas vēstures daļa tiktu atspoguļota labāk (tās pastāvēja ārzemēs, bet es domāju, ka vairāk izdzīvo Eiropā).
Liels paldies!
Rihards Olups (May 23 2023 at 14:15):(responding in English to make it easier for you - people might communicate in this topic in Latvian or English)
I think this is a wonderful project, thank you co much for sharing.
It highlights the nearly limitless capacity of OSM to help communities, including such a non-obvious thing as milk churn stand (historic or memorial) mapping.
Never mapped one personally, but will make it a point to add if I see one now.
Rihards Olups (May 23 2023 at 14:16):Es Latvijā noteikti esmu kaut kur redzējis atjaunotus un uzturētus piena steķus, kas izskatījās pēc vēstures saglabāšanas. Tikai atmiņā nav palicis pat novads.
Varbūt te kādam kāds zināms?
i-ky (May 23 2023 at 14:17):@Anne-Karoline Distel, what was the issue with certain English letters?
Anne-Karoline Distel (May 23 2023 at 14:24):It wouldn't let me type the letter K. What?! Why does it work now? kkkkkkkk Strange.
Well, I hope you get the general meaning of my post anyway.
HellMap (May 23 2023 at 15:26):Yeah, what is wrong with Zulip for some letters for some users. This is the second mention of this. https://osmlatvija.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/358602-general/topic/Post.20box.20validator/near/354935041
HellMap (May 23 2023 at 15:32):I know for sure there were actively used milk pickup stands at least a decade ago. But if I remember seeing a bunch some 15 years ago, I barely see them nowadays. I cannot even recall seeing one recently, although now I will definitelly remember if I pass one (and it would end up on Mapillary then). I definitely don't remember seeing one with barrels waiting, but this would be early day or morning, so I'm unlikely to see that. This is probably because I don't travel that far into rural areas and more urbanized areas around Riga don't use them anymore. I assume it's just not worth the hassle to pick up 1 or 2 milk barrels from individual farmers when there are basically automated farms by the truckload. I would also imagine some sort of regulation/sanitation concerns, but who knows.
Anne-Karoline Distel (May 23 2023 at 16:01):I don't think they are used in their original capacity anywhere any more. The milk churns here and in the UK and elsewhere are bolted onto the stand, so it serves more of a memorial function. Only locals will be able to tell whether it is an original stand or a newly built "memorial" (which does happen quite a bit in Ireland, Finland and Germany within the last 10 years or so).
As I live on a dairy farm, I can tell you first hand that a big milk tank lorry comes in every second day to pump the milk from somewhere (I'm not allowed in there, so I don't know details). This started in the 1970s in Ireland, so this is when the milk churn stands went out of use here. It seems to have been later in Poland and maybe Latvia as well.
Rihards Olups (May 23 2023 at 16:16):https://www.retv.lv/raksts/instagram-konta-apkopo-piena-galdu-fotografijas-un-stastus seems to suggest that some were still in use last year.
Rihards Olups (May 23 2023 at 17:10):Overpass Latvijā iezīmētajiem:
[out:json][timeout:25];
{{geocodeArea:latvia}}->.searchArea;
(
nwr["man_made"="milk_churn_stand"](area.searchArea);
);
out body;
>;
out skel qt;
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vh7
i-ky (May 24 2023 at 08:13):Anne-Karoline Distel said:
It wouldn't let me type the letter K. What?! Why does it work now? kkkkkkkk Strange.
Well, I hope you get the general meaning of my post anyway.
We get the meaning. But we would like to get to the bottom of this weird issue as well. You are the second new user who complains about it.
Could you please specify more details? What kind of Zulip client do you use (desktop, web, mobile, terminal)? What is your OS and (in case of web client) browser?
Regita Zeiļa (May 25 2023 at 08:17):Oh wow! Thanks for posting this!
I personally know girl who has made an Instagram account mentioned by @Rihards Olups (@pina_golds on Instagram), I am also a regular contributor to the account, but never thought of mapping them! The girls are super-interested in the topic and actually here in Latgale region many of them are still in use and renovated, I have seen them in use just recently this year! Instagram account also tags the approximate location of the milk churn stands!
Rihards Olups (May 25 2023 at 12:25):Oh, I thought the account is dead, but I guess it's just FB giving me the middle finger then :)
I smell a topical mapping party where we add these to the map, if they indeed are interested in sharing this bit of history and culture. I tried to contact them in a roundabout way through Lakuga, but perhaps we can have a more direct contact.
Rihards Olups (May 25 2023 at 12:29):Another level would be contributing those images to Wikimedia Commons (might be more tricky with user-supplied images, copyright release/licensing would have to be sought). That would make them much more widely available and future-proof. We could also link to individual images from OSM...
But that's where @Edgars Košovojs is an expert in :)
HellMap (May 25 2023 at 12:41):Spystagram works for me, at least the page exists
yestagram.png
HellMap (May 27 2023 at 14:48):So I'm 80% sure I actually found (a disused) one in the wild https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10931686622
foundone.jpg I am not actually superconfident it couldn't have been something else, but it seems likely
Rihards Olups (May 29 2023 at 09:45):Partially gone but not forgotten - and now mapped :)
But that highlights a tagging question.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dmilk_churn_stand suggests disused=yes, which often is discouraged.
@Anne-Karoline Distel, how is this tagged in other countries? We might not have much chance but to be consistent.
Anne-Karoline Distel (May 29 2023 at 10:12):Rihards Olups said:
Partially gone but not forgotten - and now mapped :)
But that highlights a tagging question.https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dmilk_churn_stand suggests disused=yes, which often is discouraged.
Anne-Karoline Distel, how is this tagged in other countries? We might not have much chance but to be consistent.
I'm not too eager to use it myself actually, because it's difficult to define "disused". In Ireland, they're all disused in their original purpose, but if it's kept clear from weeds and is limewashed regularly and even milk churns put on top permanently, is it really disused? I might delete that from the wiki. People can use the prefix, if they like, but of course, those won't turn up in the taginfo then.
Anne-Karoline Distel (May 29 2023 at 10:13):HellMap said:
So I'm 80% sure I actually found (a disused) one in the wild https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10931686622
foundone.jpg I am not actually superconfident it couldn't have been something else, but it seems likely
I sure can't answer that. The ones in Latvia look so different and there's such a variation in them - you'd have to ask a local.
Rihards Olups (May 29 2023 at 10:46):Anne-Karoline Distel said:
Rihards Olups said:
Partially gone but not forgotten - and now mapped :)
But that highlights a tagging question.https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dmilk_churn_stand suggests disused=yes, which often is discouraged.
Anne-Karoline Distel, how is this tagged in other countries? We might not have much chance but to be consistent.I'm not too eager to use it myself actually, because it's difficult to define "disused". In Ireland, they're all disused in their original purpose, but if it's kept clear from weeds and is limewashed regularly and even milk churns put on top permanently, is it really disused? I might delete that from the wiki. People can use the prefix, if they like, but of course, those won't turn up in the taginfo then.
There might be a need to distinguish between used/disused in some countries, so having it denoted is useful.
Taginfo would track prefixed separately, of course.
But in any case, it would be great to have a unified scheme for the whole world (along with the memorial, artwork etc tags).
Colby (May 29 2023 at 13:08):What about a platform built into a building? Mapillary, OSM
Colby (May 29 2023 at 13:10):also another bonus of having full address data, lots of those names are descriptive
Rihards Olups (May 29 2023 at 13:17):Is it that concrete platform?
If so, it seems to be adjacent to the building and could be mapped even as area.
Anne-Karoline Distel (May 29 2023 at 14:10):That's what I've done with the creameries here and in Switzerland, just a separate area outside the building. It's a bit trickier in Switzerland, because their roofs have so much overhang, but since we're supposed to map building footprint rather than roof outline, it should work.
Anne-Karoline Distel (May 29 2023 at 14:19):I agree, we should have a tagging scheme that fits all countries and all cases, but it might take a while to develop it. I was not aware that some are actually still in use, until I heard about the ones in Latvia.
And yes, having full address data is a blessing. Do you get it from your government? Because here, we don't. And even when we survey addresses, they're not clear. I was just in a newly built housing estate yesterday with a street called "The Avenue", but there are more than one (result 2-4, 6-7) of those in the town nearest to me, so you really rely on the eircode which is a postcode for each house to find the exact house , but that's copyrighted data.
Rihards Olups (May 29 2023 at 14:28):Hmm, I recall building outline recommendations generally suggesting full outline with any roofs, as we cannot reliably determine that detail from imagery. It can be detailed with building:part, of course.
Rihards Olups (May 29 2023 at 14:29):Anne-Karoline Distel said:
I agree, we should have a tagging scheme that fits all countries and all cases, but it might take a while to develop it. I was not aware that some are actually still in use, until I heard about the ones in Latvia.
The wonders and benefits of international projects - so many differences between countries and regions.
Rihards Olups (May 29 2023 at 14:31):Anne-Karoline Distel said:
And yes, having full address data is a blessing. Do you get it from your government? Because here, we don't. And even when we survey addresses, they're not clear. I was just in a newly built housing estate yesterday with a street called "The Avenue", but there are more than one (result 2-4, 6-7) of those in the town nearest to me, so you really rely on the eircode which is a postcode for each house to find the exact house , but that's copyrighted data.
We got lucky very recently when the official addressing data was opened.
@Dāvis Kļaviņš is the expert on that, maintaining a bot to sync official info - he will also be giving a talk on this topic at SOTM Baltics (#pasākumi > SOTM Baltics 2023).
There's even a dedicated Zulip stream to discuss addressing topics, #adreses.
Anne-Karoline Distel (May 30 2023 at 17:47):I've been able to identify a few from pina golds instagram account (https://www.instagram.com/pina_golds/) using your excellent aerial imagery and mapillary, wherever available. It is possible, just a bit of geo detective work.
Best of luck with the Baltic SOTM!
Rihards Olups (May 30 2023 at 18:26):Neat, the map got more points now :)
milk churn stands
Rihards Olups (Jun 15 2023 at 09:10):Further progress noticed :)
more stands
Anne-Karoline Distel (Jun 24 2023 at 00:02):The preset should work now in the iD editor, the github issue is closed. I got it to work once, and now it's gone again. Github is too complicated for me...
Screenshot-2023-06-24-004510.png
HellMap (Jun 24 2023 at 13:38):Did you look at it in a preview version from some link on the github page for id tagging scheme? Because the offical live version will only get this update with the next release, which usually takes a few weeks to months.
HellMap (Jun 24 2023 at 13:38):The bottom-right corner of iD says which version you are running id-ver.png
Rihards Olups (Jul 14 2023 at 16:22):Heya @Anne-Karoline Distel, this iniative has sparked a dedicated mapping party by @Regita Zeiļa - #pasākumi > Rēzekne 21. jūlijā :)
Rihards Olups (Jul 18 2023 at 20:29):Cik dažādi piena galdi izskatās citās valstīs. Tagad ceļojot varbūt sanāks kādu mums pavisam nepierastu atpazīt.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=piena+galds&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image
UrSuS (Jul 20 2023 at 11:03):8dda3db6-3474-42bc-8e52-dc9711209d4e.jpg
ab564d6a-362c-48c7-9bad-3d0e39abf021.jpg
c6136cd6-d0e2-45bd-bdd4-7ae6fdd37c96.jpg
HellMap (Jul 20 2023 at 11:08):Tu to pats bildēji?
UrSuS (Jul 20 2023 at 11:08):Jā, Saaremā
Rihards Olups (Jul 20 2023 at 12:19):Oh wow. @Regita Zeiļa, igauņi izdarījuši to, kas varbūt var notikt Latgalē - velomaršruts apmeklējot atjaunotus piena galdus :)
Liga Rutka (Aug 20 2023 at 09:13):Nepamanīju, vai šis jau apspriests, kartē nemanu, bet Smiltenē tapis mākslas darbs par godu Piena steķiem: https://smiltenesnovads.lv/blog/class/as-smiltenes-piens-smiltenei-svetkos-davina-jaunu-vides-objektu-tepera-ezera-promenade/. Nezinu gan precīzi, kurā vietā.
HellMap (Aug 20 2023 at 09:14):Var ielikt kartē ar fixme=* precizēt vietu vai arī atstāt piezīmi, ja galīgi nav skaidrs kur. Nez vai tuvākajā laikā tur kāds iezīmēs citādi.
HellMap (Sep 11 2023 at 18:05):Kā kartēsim? missing:man_made=milk_churn_stand
Rihards Olups (Sep 26 2023 at 17:03):Piu-piu.
Vai te drīz nebriest pasākums, kurā rāda sasniegto un dalās pieredzē? ;)
Latvija apsteidz Īriju
Regita Zeiļa (Sep 29 2023 at 19:34):Rihards Olups said:
Piu-piu.
Vai te drīz nebriest pasākums, kurā rāda sasniegto un dalās pieredzē? ;)
Latvija apsteidz Īriju
NICE! Izskatās, ka @Vizma Mičule pacentusies :tada:
Last updated: May 18 2024 at 05:42 UTC