Rihards Olups (Oct 25 2025 at 12:30): Rihards Olups (Oct 25 2025 at 12:30):Hey velokartētāji, ko domājat par šo piezīmi?
https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/4986400
Notification Bot (Oct 25 2025 at 12:42):This topic was moved here from #general > Elizabetes ielas velo by HellMap.
HellMap (Oct 25 2025 at 12:42):Es uz to paskatījos, jā. Autors arī nomainīja vienu. Nu jā, mums ir kā ir. Vieni vispirms iekartē atsevišķi, otri pēc tam kā ceļa tegus vai arī otrādi. "Pareizi" jau gan neatdalītas velojoslas nav kartēt atsevišķi. Bet arguments parasti, lai varētu vismaz kaut kādu veloinfrastruktūru "redzēt". Jau daudz reižu ar dažādiem autoriem vai nu vienā vai otrā virzienā mainīts. Ja kāds no OSM lielākas kopienas pievērstu uzmanību, tad gan jau visi tie atsevišķie ātri tiktu nonesti. Bet pagaidām mēs ne par ko vietēji neesam vienojušies vēl...
HellMap (Oct 25 2025 at 12:44):Te pa kanāliem daudz piemēru. Changeset komentārus man slikums sameklēt visus.
Rihards Olups (Oct 25 2025 at 12:48):Es veloinfrastruktūrā mazāk esmu iedziļinājies, varbūt vērts kaut kādu lokālo praksi definēt.
Atsevišķi kartētu grūtāk uzturēt.
Savukārt neatdalītu laikam specializētie velo rendereri arī rāda normāli, vai ne?
HellMap (Oct 25 2025 at 12:51):No pieredzes, atsevišķi kartētu noteikti vieglāk uzturēt, jo birkas un trajektorijas utt. nemaisās. Ceļi bieži saskaldīti katrā pagriezienā ar turn restricitoniem, dažādām sidewalk/parking birkām, utt. Piemēram Čaka ir 100 gabali un uz karta ir tas cycleway. Ja kaut kas jāmaina, tad visi 100 gabali.
HellMap (Oct 25 2025 at 12:53):Neatdalītu specializētie renderē jā, bet tur ir diezgan liela putra arī, ja daudz ceļu. Saprast var, bet krustojumos kaut kādos protams neko saprast no trajektorijām nevar, jo datos tās vispār nav.
Rihards Olups (Oct 30 2025 at 08:11):Tad gandrīz vai labāk atsevišķi kartēt joslas tomēr?
Nez, pie kā ir nonākuši valstīs, kur to joslu ir daudz vairāk.
UrSuS (Oct 30 2025 at 08:15):Kamēr tie nebūs redzami default slāni, es zīmēšu atsevišķi
HellMap (Oct 30 2025 at 10:10):Cik zinu, visur kur kartētāju ir vismaz nedaudz vairāk, joslas nekad nav atsevišķi. Tas ir gan wiki aprakstīts, gan katreiz apspriešanās secināts. Lūk tagad kāds arī pamanījis, ka Latvijā sazīmēts citādi. Protams vajadzētu darīt vai nu vienā veidā vai otrā, bet ne kā pie mums - kur pagadās tā, kur ne tā. Un vismaz cycleway=lane tegiem tām atsevišķām joslām jābūt saliktiem.
Rihards Olups (Nov 13 2025 at 10:43):Es šajā tēmā īsti neesmu iedziļinājies - varbūt tiem, kuri vairāk sapratuši, ir iespēja dokumentēt kopienas lēmumu? Tad arī varētu vērt to piezīmi ciet (ar vai bez izmaiņām datos).
HellMap (Nov 13 2025 at 10:56):Tur jau tā lieta - kas tieši ir kopienas lēmums? Mums kaut kur 50 uz 50 viedokļi, cik es zinu.
Rihards Olups (Nov 17 2025 at 19:27):Sarežģīti :)
Vai jaunais vektoru slānis situāciju kaut kā uzlabo vai nē?
markalex (Aug 26 2026 at 23:11):I would like to have a go at this.
I think only following streets need correction:
My criteria: presence of plastic bollards / plastic bollards + rubber bricks / rubber bricks + streetside parking = separate cycleway. I think it's not controversial.
I have some doubts in two things:
Please share your thoughts!
HellMap (Aug 29 2026 at 20:18):I have personally avoided doing this. But it is technically correct to not map physically-unseparated lanes as separate ways. One thing though - I would consider those rubber "bricks" as sufficient physical separation to count as separate, because it's not just paint that doesn't physically prevent crossing - bricks do. (May be not in cases where it's a very short section tho.) And yeah, different criteria can apply to opposite lanes and one can be separate and other not like Bruņinieku -- it can be a mess. But yeah, it sucks because none of it is in the default OSM layer and in most others that aren't dedicated to cycling.
markalex (Sep 01 2026 at 12:18):I have thought about it some more, and I still thing it's correct to proceed with retagging.
I really dislike that most renderers don't show lanes.
But I can find some peace in "if they don't know better - only safe cycleways will be shown, but if they do - cycleOSM or OpenCycleMap are not hard to find"
markalex (Sep 01 2026 at 12:20):I intend to proceed with the change this week.
I will not touch Sporta iela with its rubber bricks.
markalex (Sep 01 2026 at 23:00):/todo Streets
Zirņu (some places)
Vesetas (some places)
Dzelzavas - Vaidavas - Ieriķu triangle
Bruniņieku (along) + Sporta (maybe)
Elizabetes
Dzirnavu
Vilhema Purvīša (northern segment)
Kalna/Ludzas and rest of the way to Akropole
kaposts (Sep 02 2026 at 00:17):Meža prospekts?
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 05:05):kaposts said:
Meža prospekts?
To be honest - I learned about existence of cycleway there today. Somehow never noticed it, not on the map, nor IRL.
But it's 100% a lane
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 08:21):It's one of the first ones they "built". It's only oneway and goes from nowhere to nowhere. It's basically a joke.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 11:18):On Vaidavas I applied cycleway:left=share_busway, which I'm not 100% sure.
Any thoughts?
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 11:21):It's one of the 301. with "Iznemot :bike:", so opposite direction is open only to [trolley]buses and bicycles.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 15:42):On Vaidavas (going South) technically, it's not a cycle lane at all. There is no bicycle road pictogram, so nothing legally makes it a cycle lane. It's just a road where vehicles are not allowed in this direction, except for bicycles (explicitly) and buses (implicitly). Which was already tagged like that. It's the same as Avotu https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=640704295804679&focus=photo. I don't believe there are any places in Latvia with actual "share busway" signage as in a pictogram on the road, but I might not be aware of some location. As far as I know, it's either sharrows or no additional lane signage for bicycles.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 17:21):Yes, I know that and familiar with this place.
But since in that southbound direction only one lane exists, and this lane only allows bicycles and buses, doesn't it make it share_busway?
Walks like a duck, etc, etc =)
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 17:47):Well, it doesn't. (Putting aside the fact that this is not a bus lane, so it could not by definition be a share_busway.) share_busway implies there is a dedicated lane consideration for bicycles. But this is just a lane like on every other road, just with access restrictions (in this direction). It might quack similar to a duck, but you know, if the whole premise is to tag accurately...
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 17:51):You convinced me: I removed share_busway on Vaidavas
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 18:50):Wow, just wow.
Both cycle lanes from Ludzas till Akropole and from Akropole till Kalna are a single path each.
Why wasn't EV10 going through segments like this? =)
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 19:03):It's crazy how I bike everywhere but have no idea what the street names are. Like, I have no idea what segment you mean :face_with_peeking_eye:
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 19:05):
But yeah I guess you mean this. As far as I recall it wasn't seperated anywhere along N-S. Only on Ludzas in places
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 19:05):A lot of EV10 was mapped before these existed and no one has updated it since. If you start looking at cycle routes in Latvia, you'll find half or more of them are broken let alone outdated.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 19:10):Well, if I wasn't editing those street right now, their names wouldn't mean much to me either =)
On Ludzas separation is not a "proper" separation but rather just traffic calmings near the intersections/crossings.
I mapped everything as lanes.
And re EV10: it doesn't go nowhere near these streets. What I meant is that both and new routes go through a bunch of tine segments which were a pain to click through even in the tool I used. If I could just unselect and then select new segments that were continuous runs of cycleway for 3-somthing kilometres, updating ev10 would go significantly faster and easier.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 19:13):Ludzas is something I definitely wouldn't map as lanes. Because then stuff like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1252489991 doesn't make sense anymore. You then need to split off the cycleway at each of these if not keeping it for the rest of the road.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 19:16):markalex said:
select new segments that were continuous runs of cycleway for 3-somthing kilometres, updating ev10 would go significantly faster and easier
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I want to write my own route editor, so it can support pathfinding - you click a logical continuation segment and it paths to it through expected/logical route. This "click 500 segments" workflow is unusable. Every time I edited in Relatify I was wishing I could do this instead of zooming in into yet another 30 cm segment because of some random driveways
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 19:17):markalex said:
On Ludzas separation is not a "proper" separation but rather just traffic calmings
I don't think it should be, but if you are going to map them on road, then you need to map traffic calmings and buffers as well with cycle lane tags and delete the duplicate separately-mapped elements.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 19:21):HellMap said:
markalex said:
On Ludzas separation is not a "proper" separation but rather just traffic calmings
I don't think it should be, but if you are going to map them on road, then you need to map traffic calmings and buffers as well with cycle lane tags and delete the duplicate separately-mapped elements.
I like this better than idea of splitting. Not sure how exactly cyclelane specific calmings are supposed to be mapped, but I'll checked that out.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 19:25):I never got around to splitting roads around crossing traffic islands there...
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 19:38):Dzirnavu was a hell to retag - for some completely mysterious to me reason segments there don't all go in the same direction.
I hope I caught change of direction every time, but will need to check it, once cycling tiles will be updated.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 20:14):I think traffic_calming=choker+bicycle_bypass=yes might work for Ludzas.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 20:24):That is for the road (node or segment) only. Cycle lane needs cycleway:separation=*, cycleway:buffer=* . choker does not apply to cycle lanes here because there is no physical change in lanes, although I have no idea how you can specify this now.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 20:25):Also now all marked blue cycleway crossing are gone and I am not sure where you can readd this information now.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 20:30):I guess at this point it's all the same problems with sidewalks mapped as road tags, but oh well. Hopefully, in the future OSM will shift to using separate ways like sidewalks did.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 20:46):HellMap said:
That is for the road (node or segment) only. Cycle lane needs cycleway:separation=*, cycleway:buffer=* . choker does not apply to cycle lanes here because there is no physical change in lanes, although I have no idea how you can specify this now.
But it is a choker (maybe combination of choker and blister).
It narrows down whole width of the road to a lane of approximately car's width in middle + cycle lane.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 20:54):Exactly, "+ cycle lane". So it is both. Previously bollards were mapped at the right distance from cycle lane as buffer, but now it needs to be on the road tags.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 20:56):This is why I don't merge this stuff to roads where stuff like bollards exist, because it's annoying to map and maintain and just make the road split into multiple segments.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:02):HellMap said:
Exactly, "+ cycle lane". So it is both. Previously bollards were mapped at the right distance from cycle lane as buffer, but now it needs to be on the road tags.
Yes, and chocker is put onto road. It indicates that some limitations are applied to a road, while bicycle_bypass=yesindicates that cycle lane is not affected.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:03):Yes... Are we disagreeing about something?
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:06):I thought so.
I thought that this
HellMap said:
That is for the road (node or segment) only. Cycle lane needs cycleway:separation=*, cycleway:buffer=* . choker does not apply to cycle lanes here because there is no physical change in lanes, although I have no idea how you can specify this now.
means that you think that chocker is not enough.
And I think that it's enough: bollards, in this specific case, are not a "feature" of cycle lane, but rather of the choker. Whereas cycle lane just goes past it.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:12):It is a feature of both. In this case the choker just matches the extents of separation. But nothing is stopping the choker from being longer or bollards from being further.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:14):By the way, where are there actually chokers on Ludzas. I feel like we're discussing a hypothetical at the moment, since I can't think of a location that has this exact case. Even on Ludzas where traffic island splits the crossings, it doesn't choke them.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:17):https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=2146044865954917
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:19):Ludzas doesn't have islands. Are we talking about the same street?
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:19):That's not a choker though. The drivable road stays the same width.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:21):markalex said:
Not Ludzas specifically I guess but the north part Kalna/Lazdonas -- https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/13626647021 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/11510650195
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:21):It's the place where you can't park, so without those bollards driveable part would be wider.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:22):But it's not drivable part - the left side is parking
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:23):At least I have never mapped or seen breaks in street-side parking mapped as calmings/chokers
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:23):(If pressed I would map the bollarded area as a traffic island)
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:28):But it's not just a break in parking.
Since you can't park next to intersection, road gets wider a bit there.
Which might lead to some creative driving, especially when turning car + overtaking car happen. Here bollards prevent this. Thus I see it as a chocker
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:29):Well, OSM doesn't map what is theoretically possible if you break road laws...
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:31):I mean, alright, if you mapped them as chokers, I wouldn't really object given the arguments. I wouldn't map them as such and there are many places similar to this (although without bike lane).
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:34):I haven't mapped yet, but I will: there are significantly more of those things than I remembered.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:36):Like, for me, these are a chokers - you can drive on 2 lanes, but suddenly you "shrink" to 1 lane https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1571994324328113&focus=photo or https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1196107191505149&focus=photo
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:41):Like this here is a choker from 2 oneway lanes into one: https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=1900600423974349&focus=photo . There is no parking, so it's 2 lanes. But in Ludzas example - you have 1 lane and drivable width stays the same. So I would not call that a choker - the drivers don't have to do anything here. And the presense of a cycle lane does not change that.
markalex (Sep 02 2026 at 21:42):I agree that those are more obvious examples.
And maybe a different type of calming term is needed: lane_enforcer or something like that. But I never heard about term like that I couldn't find it.
HellMap (Sep 02 2026 at 21:53):
Can't wait for you to map each section with appropriate choker tags :laughing: After all, cars can't do creative overtaking on these bits.
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 10:16):After closer look, I decided against touching Zirņu - there are unprotected segments in the beginning and the end there, but it is mostly separated by those bricks (or as it was suggested in this wiki proposal bumps)
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 10:22):On Vesetas unprotected lanes span sgnificanlt longer.
But it once again has those tiny bollard strips. And they are even weirder that in was at Ludzas.
Like who does it protect and from whom?
https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=808025905191559
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 10:23):Vesetas has car parking along them, so they are protected by definition
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 10:24):HellMap said:
Vesetas has car parking along them, so they are protected by definition
This is true only for one side of the road tho. Right on photo above. But left is just a painted gutter: no parking, no brick, no nothing
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 10:25):And these unprotected sides switch back and forth
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 10:25):Those tiny bollards are next to the parking, so I assumed you meant those sections. Like, they are part of the protected segments.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 10:28):I mean, if you are asking what their real world intention is - most of these examples are so cars don't cut the corners through cycle lanes.
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 10:29):Yeah, that's what I was questioning.
Tagging in that specific case (in this direction) is straightforward
maemolol (Sep 04 2026 at 16:47):
looks like riga city council built two new bike tracks in either direction on dzirnavu street (at least up until the crossing with tērbatas street)
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 19:30):Yay, I guess. But also since it seems to be a protected lane, we can map it as a separate way.
I'm still not over other supposed bike lanes on Dzirnavu, like reported here: https://lasi.lv/par-svarigo/latvija/riga-taps-cetri-jauni-velojoslu-posmi.45021
Seems like every other lane from that article was added, but as far as I can tell on Dzirnavu - no. At least I don't see differences with state of lanes before.
I found one change though, that made me scratch my head even more:
This is a traffic light going south before crossing with Marijas. BUT it's one way there (northbound) and nothing resembling a cycleway or even prep work for construction of one. And it also wasn't there on July 1: https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=2050111485602629
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 20:39):Connection of two parts of cycleways on Lāčplēša (from Ernesta Birznieka-Upīša to Avotu) is not protected (so technically a lane and not a cycleway), but it's too short for me to care enough to retag it.
Also, those two appendixes connecting to Lāčplēša are completely mesmerizing.
It maybe 10 metres long. And how Avotu usually is - you won't be able to get there, because lane is too narrow and cars are hugging kerb.
Similar on EBU side, but there you can probably at least get to the lane at any time, since it's so wide.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:42):Hmm. Those connections should not be done like that with separate cycleways. 
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:44):They also make no sense, since you can clearly go left or straight too. But then you have to draw even more connections.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:45):Also parallel rant, but if they are gonna draw something there with paint, why not draw a goddamn asl bike box then so you can turn left properly. It's like one of the main directions from there.
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 20:46):But that's how they are in real life (if we drop whole protected/unprotected thing for now).
And at least markings on the ground suggest only right turn :man_shrugging:
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:46):No, they are dashed not solid.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:47):It's like this for cars
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:48):As in, you would not be drawing it like this
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:49):In terms of allowed navigation, you can go in any direction. The line just shows one of the continued trajectories. For OSM purposes, that "cycle path" would need to connect to the road in a way that actually allows turning left or going straight. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 20:53):I don't know who mapped it, and if they knew something we don't. I didn't make much more pictures, but maybe there are some signs limiting cyclists to turn for whatever reason?
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:55):That would be very weird. I'm sure I'll be there soon (and you probably even sooner). But I very much doubt they would forbid a turn like that. It will just make everyone do opposite lane shortcuts and then cut across the street or crossings.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:57):I am assuming the mapper simply drew the "paint" as it appears in real-life. But since we are discussing this, OSM maps by function and ways are drawn logically by medians. As far as we know, that cycle lane does not restrict turns, so it should connect in a way that allows travel in all directions like
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:57):(Of course, it's a lane, so it shouldn't be mapped separately.)
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 20:57):Actually, it might be the whole idea. To force using crossing, and then follow along Lāčplēša
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:58):Well, does this idea follow the actual legal requirements or just something they made up? I guess we will never know. And by never I mean at most a couple weeks or something. :upside_down:
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 20:59):(Could also google news article or something, but where's the fun in that)
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 21:01):I linked one above (in Dzirnavu message) - it didn't have much details, neither any other I saw.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 21:06):
Video starts late but no signs at least from there
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 21:07):(I am losing brain cells reading people's comments about every single cycle-related news article and how the usless tax non-paying cyclists are destroying the city for cars)
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 21:08):I understand that it's most likely unrelated, but what does sign with arrow on yellow mean?
I never figured out
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 21:09):It shows the direction for a temporary route aroudn something that is temporarily closed. So like if a road is closed for repairs, these yellow signs guide you around it.
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 21:10):Does Riga forget to take them done then? I see them even where there is no road works or anything.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 21:10):
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 21:11):It depends what they are for. Like in theory, they could go for dozens of kilometers on rural roads. I have no idea what this one is directing.
HellMap (Sep 04 2026 at 21:17):Anyway, I will remove those "cycle paths" for now if you aren't editing there. Even if they are correct (and there really are turn restrictions), the road itself would need to map those turn restricitons, because currently it doesn't stop bikes from turning or going straight.
markalex (Sep 04 2026 at 21:19):Sure, I don't do anything there
markalex (Sep 05 2026 at 07:09):I finished with all streets that I considered for retagging, except for Vesetas.
I don't like situation on Vesetas: sides where lane is protected and not switching back and forth. Applying same principal as everywhere else (leaving protected lanes as separate way, folding unprotected into road) before would result in a hot mess, IMO.
Other options:
I'd appreciate your input.
Last updated: Sep 10 2026 at 11:46 UTC