Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 13:44): Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 13:44):Vai ir vērts likt name:en, kas ir tikai transliterācija - kura bieži arī ir īpatna?
Piem.: "name:en = Jana Seta".
(es pieņemu, ka kāds varētu ieteikt "John's Yard", kas nebūtu nemaz tik daudz neloģiskāk ;) )
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 13:47):Un ar kādu joku man tagad atbildēt, kad tu tā uzreiz likvidē iespēju
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 13:47):Bet nē, es neliktu nekur transliterāciju - tā taču var galīgi bezjēgā saiet katrai valodai.
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 13:49):Please don't suggest anything like "John's Yard". It would be very confusing out of context, an closer to translation.
I for this day very surprised (in unpleasant way) every time I see "Freedom street" in Riga.
Colby (Jun 03 2024 at 13:51):markalex2209 said:
Freedom street
https://www.vvc.gov.lv/lv/skaidrojumi#21022024-ka-tulkot-adreses
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 13:52):markalex2209 said:
Please don't suggest anything like "John's Yard"
Btw, that was a joke; it's hard to translate because it's implied as joke from the subtle way it's worded that is lost in translation.
Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 13:55):Colby said:
https://www.vvc.gov.lv/lv/skaidrojumi#21022024-ka-tulkot-adreses
O, labs.
ne ielu nosaukumus, ne adreses netulko, bet gan svešvalodā norāda tāpat kā oriģinālvalodā (latviešu valodā), ar visām diakritiskajām zīmēm (garumzīmēm un mīkstinājuma zīmēm)
...
Vienīgais adreses elements, ko nepieciešamības gadījumā pieļaujams tulkot svešvalodā, ir nomenklatūrvārds iela (arī bulvāris, prospekts u. tml.) vai laukums (arī skvērs).
Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 13:57):markalex2209 said:
Please don't suggest anything like "John's Yard". It would be very confusing out of context, an closer to translation.
I for this day very surprised (in unpleasant way) every time I see "Freedom street" in Riga.
Haha yeah, that was a preemptive strike at HellMap specifically ;)
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 13:59):O jā, tātad Brīvības街 ... VVC nav jau atkal gluži autoritāte vispasaules projektam. OSM tomēr darīs tā, lai būtu kaut kāda skaidrība. Bet no otras puses - es jau sen saku, ka nav ko "tulkot" visu pēc kārtas. Tie "Krasta Street" tagad katrā ciemā. name:uk arī katram otrajam objektam.
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 14:02):Bet tā VVC atbilde arī laikam ir oficiālākais uz ko #general > Ielu nosaukumu tulkojumi varētu cerēt
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 14:04):Colby said:
markalex2209 said:
Freedom street
https://www.vvc.gov.lv/lv/skaidrojumi#21022024-ka-tulkot-adreses
I know that. And that is basically what I said.
But it still happens:
image.png
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 14:09):Also can somebody please explain part about translation of the nomenclature part, like iela: does that article say that it should be translated, or can be translated?
Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 14:09):markalex2209 said:
Also can somebody please explain part about translation of the nomenclature part, like iela: does that article say that it should be translated, or can be translated?
"...if required, the only part of an address that can be translated..."
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 14:11):Thanks! I think it solves the Brīvības街 then)
Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 14:11):markalex2209 said:
I know that. And that is basically what I said.
But it still happens:
image.png
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 14:14):Nu jā, tā ir nepareiza tulkošana, kuru neviens nav pamanījis. Būtu улица Бривибас, ja vajag vēsturiski zināmo.
Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 14:28):Nonest abus?
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 14:30):Angļu es gandrīz visā Latvijā nonestu. Krieviski jāskatās, vai tā iela tā ir pazīstama. Tajā topikā jau par to domas atšķīrās. Bet nu tagadējā vērtība gan ir šķība, to vismaz izlabot vajag.
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 14:42):Can you explain this part:
ja vajag vēsturiski zināmo
What history has to do with street naming? I mean if street is officially named Brīvības, it should be direct transliteration Бривибас in Russian, regardless of historical name, isn't it?
Only exception I could think of is if the street would have an official name in Russian different from transliteration, but I can't imagine this happening RN.
Rihards Olups (Jun 03 2024 at 14:50):HellMap said:
Angļu es gandrīz visā Latvijā nonestu. Krieviski jāskatās, vai tā iela tā ir pazīstama. Tajā topikā jau par to domas atšķīrās. Bet nu tagadējā vērtība gan ir šķība, to vismaz izlabot vajag.
Man loģiski šķiet @markalex2209 nākamajā ziņā minētā versija, ka tur var likt vēsturiskos nosaukumus, kuri nav transliterācija. Citādāk visur varētu likt transliterācijas, un būs mums diezgan miskastīgi.
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 14:57):Sorry, I think you misunderstood me and this is a very complex topic that I summarized in like 5 words assuming we are following OSM principles. There is that super-long previous topic on this, I just didn't want to repeat everything again. Here, I meant "historic" as in no longer official. But for this example, still in use.
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 14:58):Ohh, this....
Yes, that's complicated. We should not spiral into that discussion here.
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 14:59):Just for the record, actual historic name should be name:sw:1940-1970=Whatever name, we don't list those at all along the main name if it changes.
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 15:00):Yeah, have seen something like that. And could not figure out why you wouldn't use that instead. Thanks for explanation.
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 20:01):I made a quick partial analyzer (well, it was supposed to be quick, but the amount of problems I quickly discovered... :grimacing:). https://osmlatvija.github.io/Osmalyzer/Improper%20translations%20report.html Currently checks Russian names of streets (technically, all roads) names against how it expects a Latvian name to most likely transliterate into Cyrillic. Most are false positives but some are obvious translations and not transliterations. Of those some are possibly real names (e.g. Южный мост) but some are suspect (e.g. Девичья улица).
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 20:05):I find this item funny:
Expected Russian name:ru to resemble улица Карля Миленбаха, but was улица Карлиса Миленбахса for name=Kārļa Mīlenbaha iela. Who would have thought that Russian version will have additional c at the end, and not Latvian)
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 20:09):Yeah, the names are "interesting". Obviously, for one, transliteration cannot handle declension. I guess one thing VVC doesn't address is people's and proper names - would this be transliterated literally or do they actually get converted to their other-language form. E.g. Jāņa correctly becomes Яниса but literal would be incorrect Яня.
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 20:11):I guess Kārlis is the nominal/tive form, so it technically had an "s" before it got declined. Sicne Russian declension removes/adds different letters, there are probably many silly examples like this. It's just that we actually don't have that many street names in Russian.
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 20:42):I have mixed opinion for the bridges here. On one hand there is no apparent reason to exclude the from the rule "Transliterate and not translate", but practice of the naming for them in Russian (at least three in Riga over Daugava), for example is media, seems to differ.
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 20:43):But I think Brasas bridge is not translated.
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 20:44):Probably couldn't figure out what "brasa" means :laughing:
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 20:47):Well, didn't though of that. I'm still learning, and assumed that since this doesn't sound like name, probably it means something.
markalex2209 (Jun 03 2024 at 20:49):Tezaurs indicates that it means something: https://tezaurs.lv/brasa, though I don't get what exactly like you suggested)
HellMap (Jun 03 2024 at 20:53):I actually have no idea what it means. But Wikipedia says it was Brasla rail station before it became Brasa for the neighbourhood which is what the bridge is also. And Brasla is presumably from Brasla river, but I am assuming it's originally just from "brasls" - ford. Not sure though.
Rihards Olups (Jun 04 2024 at 08:28):Not sure about translating all names (including bridges) - surely we wouldn't add name:lv="Zelta vārtu tilts"?
Next somebody will run around adding translated names for Purvciems, Lielupe, Ežezers, Saulkrasti, Jūrmala...
Which reminds me how somebody who was learning Latvian a short time later was mind-blown, when many place names started making sense to them :)
For @markalex2209, these could be easier to translate when expanded to "Purva ciems", "Lielā upe", "Ežu ezers", "Saules krasti". The last one might be easier :)
markalex2209 (Jun 04 2024 at 08:36):Rihards Olups said:
Not sure about translating all names (including bridges) - surely we wouldn't add name:lv="Zelta vārtu tilts"?
Next somebody will run around adding translated names for Purvciems, Lielupe, Ežezers, Saulkrasti, Jūrmala...Which reminds me how somebody who was learning Latvian a short time later was mind-blown, when many place names started making sense to them :)
For markalex2209, these could be easier to translate when expanded to "Purva ciems", "Lielā upe", "Ežu ezers", "Saules krasti". The last one might be easier :)
I don't suggest enforcing translation, to be clear. Just a thought to maybe exclude bridges from checks, since there is seemingly wide enough adoptions of their translation (at least in Riga and at least for Russian language).
Of course we can put official transliteration into name:ru and then add something like alt_name:ru=Вантовый мост, but I feel like this will diminish usefulness of the map.
markalex2209 (Jun 04 2024 at 08:43):Regarding learning - yes that might be very useful to memorize words. For example, Brīvības = Freedom is burned in my mind for long now. And I new about Purvciems (mostly dew to wide use of ciems around, but also because I live here. Also I already thought about Lielupe, and stuff with Daugava in the name.
But "lake of hedgehogs" sounds strange and somewhat against intuition, even after you pointed that out :upside_down:
Rihards Olups (Jun 04 2024 at 09:41):Yeah, I can see how some translations can be more popular, and thus more tempting to map.
I'd probably default to no translations, but we night be unable to get away from exceptions. Maybe tag translations always along the official transliteration?
Regarding the lake, It's actually singular, I didn't bother to doublecheck, thus "Eža ezers".
There are plenty of additional names like that - Lapmežciems, Augstrozes Lielezers - and that's before getting into Latgallian-originating names that some/many Latvians would be oblivious about like Vucini, Kūkas...
Name meanings and compounds would belong in another topic, though - will put it aside for now :)
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 09:52):Need a sanity check:
Oskara Kalpaka tilts -> Oskars Kalpaks' bridge is a translation and thus incorrect. Should be Oskara Kalpaka bridge, right?
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 09:53):Same for Jāņa Pliekšāna iela -> улица Яниса Плиекшана. Should be улица Яня Плиекшана
HellMap (Jun 05 2024 at 10:04):I guess strictly going by VVC, the first one should be changed, yes. The second though, I don't think there any VVC guidance on adjusting proper people's names spelling in different languages. I don't how it was used in Russian, but sounds about right. (My Russian knowledge ends at actually trying to do spelling and grammar.)
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 10:13):Yeah, that's a point of contention for me: if we want to transliterate as is улица Яня Плиекшана is correct. But if we want to preserve the name of author, in honor of whom street was named, I'd say it should be улица Яниса Плиекшана.
HellMap (Jun 05 2024 at 10:15):Just wait until you learn he was referred to as "Ян" durign earlier Soviet times, so it would be "улица Яна Плиекшана" at the time https://rus.lsm.lv/statja/kultura/kultura/kilobayt-kulturi-posle-restavracii-otkrilas-dacha-muzey-raynisa-i-aspazii-v-mayori.a198192/ Again, I have no idea what the actual used name was
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 10:16):But this works both ways. If we start applying target language rules to declensions, then Oskars Kalpaks' bridge is a correct one.
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 10:35):HellMap said:
Just wait until you learn he was referred to as "Ян" durign earlier Soviet times, so it would be "улица Яна Плиекшана" at the time https://rus.lsm.lv/statja/kultura/kultura/kilobayt-kulturi-posle-restavracii-otkrilas-dacha-muzey-raynisa-i-aspazii-v-mayori.a198192/ Again, I have no idea what the actual used name was
I think that if the street is called in the name of Jānis Pliekšāns we can argue only for either улица Яня Плиекшана (direct transliteration, complete disregard to the initial name), or улица Яниса Плиекшана(adoption to respect the name). Any other version is a different (historic, alternative or whatever) name. Unless of course there are official translations.
And only reason of consideration for улица Яниса Плиекшана is that in Russian it is implied that street is name after the owner of the name used, so it's something of a shorthand for улица имени Яниса Плиекшана.
Dāvis Kļaviņš (Jun 05 2024 at 10:42):In my opinion, we should stick to the principles used in Western Europe and keep street names only in local language. All other languages to be either removed or changed to old_name with respective language code and preferrably time period. Thus, it will be no problem to write улица Яниса Плиекшана if it was used that way back then.
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 10:49):Why? And would you suggest removing all language specific names? What to do if somebody will go ahead and add something like name:hi=जाना प्लीक्षांए गली?
Dāvis Kļaviņš (Jun 05 2024 at 10:57):I'm writing about street and similar names. Name plaques are only in one (state) language. If anybody needs, nomenclature names (street etc.) can be translated automatically, no need to increase data size. Also, it's a geopolitical question in Latvia. Latgalian and Livonian language are the only exemptions, but actual use in street names must be checked, I'm aware of signs on state roads in these languages.
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 11:31):In my opinion, size of data is a red hearing here.
I find that presence of localized (in terms of alphabet at least) names increases usefulness of map.
And I doubt this is a geopolitical question: nobody in Kremlin cares that brave we deleted cyrillics from map to decrease their influence.
Dāvis Kļaviņš (Jun 05 2024 at 11:39):As we use Latin alphabet which is used globally, translating doesn't make sense as any tourist is assumed to be able to read it. It's different in, e.g. China, Georgia etc. Actual (not historical) names in Russian make a lot of sense geopolitically as they continue enabling some of Russian population to live in their bubble where everything is in Russian. It's like marking their (in their opinion) territory of influence. Somehow I don't see street names in Turkish in Brussels, for example.
markalex2209 (Jun 05 2024 at 12:15):See, this is you personal row against diaspora speaking primarily Russian. I don't see this as a spread of influence or marking something as a territory under control, same as I wouldn't see that in any other combination of country/language: Brussels/Turkish, Jerusalim/Arabic, New-Deli/Chinese.
I see this as a matter of map been useful: for diaspora, for tourists, for refugees, for those who haven learned language yet. And more generally for whoever wants to live their life without being told what to do.
Dāvis Kļaviņš (Jun 05 2024 at 17:51):Translating street names is not useful for tourists (and any other foreigners) in countries with Latin alphabet. If it were, we would see name:en for a considerable amount of streets in, e.g. Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, Rome and other major tourist hubs, but there are only a few exceptions due to lack of data maintenance. Overpass query for Paris:
[out:json][timeout:250];
{{geocodeArea:Paris}}->.searchArea;
nwr[highway]["name:en"](area.searchArea);
out geom;
Last updated: Jul 04 2024 at 06:13 UTC